Talk:Amethyst

Untitled

Vandals remark deleted.
Adrian Pingstone 09:34, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Folklore

Should this really be here, and if it should, should some of the remarks be backed up or justified?

The remark that soldiers carried amethyst in their swords, for example, does not specify which soldiers, where, or what evidence there is. Are these pre-christian Romans or eighteenth century Japanese soldiers? And who says all these things? Is there any documentation? I'm not at all sure this section should be published as it is. Brentford 10:37, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A check of the article history shows that it was probably part of the 1911 text dump back in 2002. It is in need of either good referencing and/or a drastic clean-up. Simple deletion of the section would probably irritate some. -Vsmith 12:59, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Outdated information about colour

The information about the colour of the amethyst comes from 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, as it can be seen on [1] but the theory about being attributed to the presence of manganese or being of "organic source" is outdated. I am not a chemist and my English is poor, so I will not modify the article myself. From what I know, the colour of the amethyst appears when some quartz is at proximity of uranium (in the ground): the radiations make some electrons to quit the impurity aluminium atoms, and create one colour centre. There are maybe other colour centres than those around aluminium. I hope someone can verify and update the article. Alkarex 17:55, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bibliography: Quartz Crystals and Their Colors 10.1002/anie.197302831 «The many colors found in quartz crystals are always due to the presence of impurity atoms...» and also on Google Scholar. Alkarex 23:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here is another article attributing the color of amethyst to color centers -- amethyst link. I am trying to write articles on color centers, and may be able to find a more authoritative description to add at some point. Zolot 00:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I doubt very much that the statement "The color in amethyst is due to irradiation" is correct. It is certainly possible to use powerful irradiation to artificially induce amethyst colouration in quartz with sufficient iron impurities, but this is surely not the mechanism by which natural amethyst acquires its colour. Most natural radioactive sources (e.g. Uranium deposits) have very low activity, and typically generate alpha particles at energies of 4-5 MeV, which would penetrate only microns into solid quartz; this would result in a thin film of amethyst colouration over largely clear quartz. I am sure that natural amethyst, which is much more common and widely distributed than any high grade radioactive ores, acquires its (often deep and uniform) colour though a straightforward crystalisation process in the presence of sufficient concentration of iron impurities. However, until I find a citeable reference for this, I will leave it as speculation here on the talk page. FredV (talk) 10:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Physically, natural irradiation comes from uranium ores which give microns of penetration depth and spatially inhomogeneous flux (dose might be Ok because of long residence time). My wild guess is that irradiation (i) produces color centers and (ii) converts them to an appropriate charge state - this all is needed to explain why the color is lost by heating and restored by re-irradiation [2], and (iii) is one, but not a unique source of amethyst color. However, I don't know this material and thus this is just a guess. Materialscientist (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I gave a year ago a valid ref coming from Material Research, 2009, vol 12 n°3, http://www.scielo.br/pdf/mr/v12n3/v12n3a11.pdf which explained very well HOW irradiation ended up by having Fe3+ displaced in an unusual manner in the crystal lattice of amethyst. this ref disappeared and now we have a ridiculous ref from...1972 because someone thinks his old dusty books are always rught and that the colour is just from "ferric impurities". That's stupid. It's much more complex than that: Michael O'Donoghue in his 2006 edition of his 900 page book "Gems" , (perhaps the best overall ref for stones for clear understanding , as a source for wikipedia rock and gem articles) , says it's irradiation and trivalent iron as well, whether they're synthetic or natural (page 301, "colour" ). I'm sorry but a 2006 and 2009 ref from Materials Research and the book Gems are much more valid than obscure and hypothetical refs from 1972 and 1997! The article in materials research says that (on pages 318 and 319) Fe3+ substitutes for silicon through irradiation : [FeSiO4/M+]0 → [FeSiO4/h+]0 + M+ + e then it is clearly said that "Colorless samples of natural quartz that become amethyst and prasiolite after irradiation have infrared spectra at room temperature with a broad band at around 3441 cm–1 and a band at 3585 cm–1." and on page 319 "The color of amethysts and prasiolites are the result of the formation of [AlSiO4/h+]0 and [FeSiO4/h+]0 centers formed by the exposure to ionizing irradiation and the influence of lattice distortions caused by the iron as a substitute for silicon and a high content of trace elements of large ionic radius like potassium." O'Donoghue says in "Gems", 2006, that iron is INVOLVED in the amethyst colour but is not sole responsible for the violet toned color, citing a study by Nassau (2000) , himself citing Rossman in Heaney and al (1994). He specifically explains that Fe3+ substitutes AFTER irradiation ( page 302 "On irradiation an [FeO4]4- colour centre absorbs light to produce the amethyst colour" ) and that transition elements can give the amethyst colour EVEN IF THE IRON CONCENTRATION IS LOW ( same page "The strong colour of amethyst arises even when the iron concentrations are low, as the transitions are allowed ones in this case" ), mimicking the substitution between iron and silicon. In this sense, O'Donoghue and Materials Research conclude both that irradiation and the presence of trace elements permit the substitution of trivalent iron and/or transition element with silicon . It is said in O'Donoghue's book that amethyst is dichroic in bluish violet and reddish violet, that ametrine can be obtained from amethyst naturally and synthetically, that amethyst is susceptible to lose it's deep violet color if overexposed to (sun)light and can be synthetically re-colored by irradiation. The exact ref for Rossman in Heaney et al (1994) as cited by O'Donoghue is not found in the amethyst article, nevertheless I found it: Heaney et al, 1994 : "Silica: physical behavior, geochemistry, and materials applications" in Reviews in Mineralogy v. 29 . 82.240.163.245 (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Although the Materials Research paper is from 2009 it focuses more on the subsitution of iron for silicon in the presence of certain trace elements, but O'Donoghue's 2006 book is more precise since it cites many recent studies and stresses the part about transition elements which impart a deep rich amethystine colour even when the iron is not in sufficient concentration to do so by itself.I thus mentioned both the trace elements and the transition elements in the wikipedia article, along with the obligatory irradiation,-irradiation- being a point on which both sources (with extensive bibliography ) insist upon for the substitutions to take place. Here is a link on googlebooks to have a (legal) peek at "Gems,their sources, descriptions and identification" sixth edition,by Micheal O'Donoghue , 2006, Butterworth-Heinemann: http://books.google.fr/books?id=ZwcM5H-wHNoC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false . 82.240.163.245 (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Dedushenko et al present evidence of Fe⁴⁺ ions producing the typical amethyst colouration in synthetically produced iron-doped silica crystals that were irradiated by gamma radiation (Dedushenko, S. K., Makhina, I. B., Mar’In, A. A., Mukhanov, V. A., & Perfiliev, Y. D. (2004). What Oxidation State of Iron Determines the Amethyst Colour? Hyperfine Interactions, 156/157(1-4), 417–422. ). http://geology.com/minerals/quartz/ametrine.shtml presents similar information on colour of amethyst and the production of ametrine and refers to other articles that may also be useful.

Amethyst Color Examples

To continue the discussion of amethyst color, metaphysical ideas and photos showing 9 colors of amethyst geodes may be found in a copyrighted article [3]

Edistw 7 Jan 2006

This page was vandalized

I'm a newbie here; I could see how to look at the history but I couldn't find any way to revert to the previous good version of the page.

Thanks for getting my attention, the vandalism has been reverted now. Vsmith 19:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Added some chemistry info

Introduced a notes section, as it seemed appropriate for the two references I added. --Olneya 20:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrology

Are there references for the astrology sources? I'm interested why a stone would have 4 of the 12 signs represented and where the contributor received that information. Perhaps it could be qualified somehow, but I wouldn't begin to know how without the sources. --MysticFedora (talk) 03:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-drunknenness belief

I read somewhere that one explanation suggested for the belief that amethyst drinking vessels protected the drinker from intoxication, is that the colour of the amethyst causes water to look somewhat like wine. However, I am having trouble locating the source (so that it can be properly cited) and I am also wondering if this belongs in the article? Bbi5291 (talk) 00:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The idea of ¨non intoxication¨ is not a literal one. It relates to the idea of the amethyst color as a symbol of heavenly understanding. Therefore the intoxication is a lack of heavenly understanding or intoxication in the material world and thus divine ignorance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.41.121.99 (talk) 14:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Amethyst drinking cups ?
The "Mythology" section states: " … wine goblets were often carved from it [i.e., amethyst]." This claim -- that the ancient Greeks and Romans drank wine from vessels of amethyst -- recurs in a number of books on gemstones, but I have not been able to find any source among ancient authors stating that this was true. The most natural source for this sort of nonsense would be Pliny the Elder's Natural History ; however, a search of that book reveals some discussion of amethysts, but no mention of amethyst drinking vessels. So far in my search, the only source that states that wine will not intoxicate if it's drunk from a vessel of amethyst is Mohammad ibn (or "ben") Mansur's Book of Precious Stones (ca. 1300 A.D.), where the statement appears in Chapter 20. Some (very questionable) on-line sources claim that Cleopatra had a amethyst set into her drinking cup, but those claims appear to be based on a brief epigram by Asclepiades of Samos (born ~320 BCE) -- or Antipatros of Thessalonike -- which states that some queen named Cleopatra wore an amethyst ring (however, it's not clear who "Queen Cleopatra" was: Alexander the Great had a sister named Cleopatra; and the most famous Queen Cleopatra was the seventh queen of Egypt to have that name).
Regardless, it would be very difficult to make a drinking vessel of amethyst: most amethyst crystals are too small to be carved into drinking vessels, and amethyst can't be melted in order to be cast or blown as a drinking vessel (strong heat destroys its color).
Consequently, I suggest that the claim be deleted until it can be substantiated.
Cwkmail (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Source on Amethystos myth

I've been trying to find a source on the Amethystos myth for a while (theoi.com is yielding nothing). The source given on this Wikipedia page just leads to one of many gemstone websites which lists the myth, but no ancient source. Does anyone know of one so we can list it? Thanks! -- 205.200.0.105 (talk) 15:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I've never left a Wikipedia edit comment before, so hope I'm doing this correctly. The only source I've ever found for this myth is Kunz's "The Curious Lore of Precious Stones", page 58. He mentions the story as coming from French poetry, not Greek myth. The footnotes says, "Belleau, " Œuvres poétiques," ed. Marty-Laveaux, Paris, 1878, vol. ii, pp. 172 sqq. The poem in which this tale occurs is the " Amours et nouveaux eschanges des pierres précieuses," -written in 1576 and dedicated to Henri III." So that's why you can't find anything earlier on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.219.130 (talk) 15:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Best grade

Is the best grade Deep Siberian or Deep Russian as both are stated as being the best? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I noticed this too, sadly I'm no geologist so I rightly can't comment on the issue but it appears the terms aren't interchangeable. This site uses Siberian [1]and this site comments that the Siberian has characteristic 'red accents' [2]. I haven't found any academic sources or paper source to quote from, I not spending all night researching this =P.--86.170.215.164 (talk) 19:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

radiation

I wonder if amethyst is produced by irradiation, which means vicinity to radioactive materials, would it possible that it may contain traces of them? So is it safe to use amethyst in jewelry? I would really appreciate if someone could offer some data on this.

xin_jl (talk) 13:44, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Amethyst/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Greater inline citations needed for easy referencing of facts. Highly important article, based on birthstone. SauliH 16:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC) This is a great information for every body but I want to know in which metal (like golden or silver) people wear Amethyst for more effectiveness. vip_chauhan11@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.196.140.253 (talk) 03:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 07:35, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Meaning of amethyst in cultures

I want to open a discussion on this line in the History section: "... amethyst has different meanings in Feng Shui and focuses on increasing wealth. In ancient China, it was also used as a powerful tool to remove negative energies and drive away the hazards of daily life."

I'm a little skeptical of the source cited, which makes several claims about the meaning of amethyst, but doesn't seem to back up any of them with sources of its own. The website also might be self-published by crystal enthusiasts. Radioactivated (talk) 16:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with simply removing the line. Even if it was properlly sourced, it belongs under the cultural meanings section, not the history section. But we'd need a reliable source indicating that this Feng Shui usage is notable. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Inforrect information

The article mentions what is supposedly the "largest amethyst geode in the world". I have seen sources report the sale of geodes more than 10x the weight.

I havent made an edit before or read any community guidelines, so i figured id drop a note and someone else can fix it. ChipmunkMooshroom (talk) 02:00, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Honestly after looking for a source i would be willing to site, i guess a recommendation for an edit would be to say "largest geode as of 2007" instead of to date ChipmunkMooshroom (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Function and belief of amethyst among ancient greeks and romans

There is no clear proof that this is true. Ancient evidence does not support this view.

Never read this work; but the ancient sources suggest a way more complex function and belief concerning the use of these gemstones in drinking or with alcoholic drinks. Juan paracchini (talk) 06:02, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

This talk does not permit quoting. But i refer to the encyclopedia britanica author whose views are stated as if fact. Juan paracchini (talk) 06:04, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Amethystus

I am focusing on ancient meaning. The ancient greeks/romans used this word to describe a certain gemstone. (It was likely violet and a type of quartz) the meaning of the word can be translated as "not drunk" 2 epigrams from greek anthology describe ways this gemstone was used, and what the ancients who used them may have believed. 1) 9 .748 by plato the younger (may have lived around time of Augustus) this epigram was originaly an inscription that describes an image of the god Dionysus, carved on an amethyst gemstone. The gem may likely have been on a goblet. And the inscription itself may have been on that goblet. The poets words are making the god speak much like a prophet speaks on behalf of a god. The god says that his epithet and characteristic is to drink and get drunk. He says to the stone; teach me to be sober, or else learn yourself to get drunk. The meaning is not very clear or obvious. But there is no clear indication that the gemstone was used in some magic to keep a drinker sober, as this wiki article says. It's possible that the gemstone may represent being sober because it resembled grapes that where still unfermented. It is possible that the gemstone is seen as if some kind of thing that is containing the god (from drinking). 2) 9.752 by antipater of thessalonica (lived around 40 BC to 38 AD) Here this amethyst gemstone has a goddess of drunkeness on it. (Likely Methe daughter of dionysus the wine god). Again the gem was likely on a goblet, which is called: "the sacred possession of cleopatra" (likely referring to the famous cleopatra 7 Thea philopator. She and marcus antoninus where famous for their drinking parties and banquets full of many extravagance. The epigram also says: on the queens hand, even the drunken goddess should be sober." Meanings are again not very clear and subject to multiple different interpretations. I note how the gem is associated with being sober. (Again the meaning of word amethyst is not drunk). Also, how it is "sacred". Gemstones where often seen in religious contexts for ancients. Example: jewish high priests wore gemstones in their breast plate and may have even used some as mediums to the true god. It is possible that cleopatras gemstone itself is a medium to the goddess of drunkeness. Alcohol to this day get called "spirits" at times. In bible, noah drank alot. And both jesus and dionysus turned water into wine. It is possible that some similar thing is being addressed in this epigram. "...even the goddess should be sober" may indicate a reverse spell or trick to make wine into water. Again the meanings are not clear at all. There is no reason to believe the gemstones where being used by drinkers to keep sober. But what is clear, is that the gemstone was sacred; it had images of dieties; and it was called "not drunk" the pagan gods often had toxic diets. They live of drugs, and food described often as nectar and ambrosia. A kind of drink of bees or butterflies. And ancient greeks often spiked their wines and pastries or junk foods with drugs and honey and spices. In bible heavenly food is more associated with dew of heaven or with "mannah bread". But wine was also seen as sacred. In catholicism, trans-substantiation doctrine says wine is literal blood of christ. In bible, at the cross, jesus also fullfills scriptures by taking a drink that was likely spiked with deadly drugs; just before the god man is portrayed as dying. My final conclusion: i believe ancient pre-christian greeks and romans where clearly using this gemstones in a religious context, and traditional culture and belief system. Juan paracchini (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Pliny the elder on amethyst

book 37 of plinys natural history is all about gemstones. In 37.121-125 he addresses the amethyst. He says they came in several varieties of colours. The Indian amethyst in particular he says has the best purple colour, which resembled colour of wine. But there where also reddish ones resembling red wine colour. Pliny is interested mainly in refuting superstitious religious usages and beliefs about this gemstone. He criticizes the Magi teaching in particular. (Magi where Persian...perhaps zoroastrian kinds of philosophers). They held that the gem got its name because people thought it prevented drunkeness. NOTE: PLINY IS REFUTING THIS BELIEF. NOT SUPPORTTING IT) Pliny describes other ways it was used in superstitious and traditional old ways. People used it as charms; to protect against spells; protect against kings; protect against plagues. Pliny also says the teachings of the Magi reflect their contempt for mankind. Conclusion: this ancient evidence describes a variety of religious use and beliefs people held of these gemstones. Juan paracchini (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

This article on wiki starts off right away with falsehood

The article says that ancient greeks wore amethyst and carved drinking vessels from it in the belief that it prevents intoxication. Who the hell is the idiot responsible for this? How much other falsehoods litter wiki? The source of this nonsense is likely a modern author who is citing writings of pliny the elder rather incorrectly. Pliny quoted a teaching of the magi; that he is both criticizing and refuting. I am sure that a few ignorant religious people held those beliefs. But it is clear, that many people where using the gemstones in many different ways. What is also clear from ancient sources is that the gemstones are linked to religious/faith systems of conventions and beliefs among both common peoples and aristocratic Upper class, who held lower classes in contempt. Juan paracchini (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2025 (UTC)